Million Dollar Listing New York Agent Kirsten Jordan Discusses Creating A Team and Douglas Elliman

Welcome to brokerage insider. This is the podcast where we interviewed the leaders in real estate and real estate technology. I'm your host, Eric Stegemann and I'm the CEO of Travis. We're one of the largest independent prop tech companies in real estate and provider of custom brokerage technology to medium and large sized brokerages in the United States, Canada, and now all around the world. Today on the show, we are very excited to have million dollar listing new York's newest cast member, New York, mega agent Kirsten Jordan. Now Kirsten is an agent with Douglas element in New York, and she's been selling in Manhattan for over 12 years. During that time she sold over a $500 million of real estate, and I'm sure that number has ticked higher since the last time I was able to get numbers. And with that feature on million dollar listing, I'm sure she will have a lot to share with folks listening in. So person thanks so much for joining us today. Well, thank you so much for having me I'm excited to be here. So, you know, I always ask everybody this question and it's kinda how we kick things off, which is how did you get started in residency? Well, I was actually. Living in Italy. Post-college so I, I went to the university, Wisconsin, Madison. I lived in Chicago for a year, and then I lived in Italy for two years in Milan. And while I was living in Milan, I actually sold licenses for designs, for greeting card and racking paper company. That was, it was actually, they actually had artwork and they literally licensed their designs for. You know, a certain amount of money across Europe. And this was a job where I was essentially in sales and it, I was learning Italian translating. And what I realized from that job was that I liked sales and that I was good at sales, but that the ticket. Price of what I was selling was so low that there was no way I was ever going to make any money. And then of course, you know, I was living in Europe as a woman, which is another difficult way to make money in general. And so I came back to the U S and I decided to take my hand at real estate. I thought I would be able to speak Italian. I was going to have this huge Italian clientele and my sales experience at 25 years old was going to just propel me into making tons of money selling it Manhattan real estate. So that was. Really how I got my start was just this, this dream of, of selling an Italian, all of these condos to Europeans. Well, that's it. It's funny. I actually started selling real estate myself in St. Louis. And after I sold my brokerage, I, I jokingly, well, I, I moved out to orange County, California, and a friend that I had out there. She laughed at me at what our average sales price was. And, and, you know, we made five or $6,000 on a transaction with, with doing that with greeting cards, et cetera. But it was, was a lot less than that. Oh, my gosh, it was like a joke. It was like making $20 on a sale. I mean, can't make it up. Well, okay. So here you are now in, in in Manhattan real estate. And, and so you got into the business and I bet you, it was really, really hard when you first started trying to get into Manhattan real estate. So why don't you tell us a little bit about that? Well, I started in the end of 2007, 2008. And so it was just a really interesting time to get into the business because the market was really slowing down pretty quickly. And as you know, with the crash in 2008, it was, I had sold one property. And I was on a team and it was a pretty lean team and, and they were perfectly nice people, but it wasn't the right. Situation for me. I was actually at Douglas Solomon at the time, and I realized that I need to find a way to have a base salary so I could pay my bills and learn the business in a little bit more of an organized fashion. And I, there, there was an opportunity for an agent that was a top agent that was hiring an assistant and back then an assistant position was really the traditional position of. Actually working for one broker and doing a little bit of everything for that brokerage, that they were able to leverage themselves into, do more business. It wasn't, as you know, as it is now with these teams where you have the assistant and you have the transaction manager, you have the marketing person, you have the buyer's agent and the seller's agent. It was, it was really, I did a little bit of everything and. I got really lucky because I got this job just as everything was crashing. And this was an agent that was able to stand the test of the market. And I learned a ton during that, and I was able to work on a modest based salary and, and, you know, get a, get a small cut of commissions. Well, you know, it seems like Manhattan real estate has been involved in teams for, for a long time. Right. And so here you are, you jumped on a team, it helped propel you to get started. You know, it seems like that was vital to where you're at today. Would you, would you classify it that way, that, that the team allowed you to start that process? It sure seemed like that. From what you said. Yeah, I, I was able to get started and start to learn about the business by being on this one team. What I did realize from then moving from a team to working for a single broker was that I learned more because I was immersed in more things and I had to be a support system for this agent. So that really helped me probably the most from learning all aspects of the business. But of course, getting in, getting on a team, getting exposure to transactions was the best way to get started for me. Yeah, sure. It seems like it. I mean, I've, I've long been a proponent of more or less real estate agents when they start out in the business going to more of an apprentice style requirement like a lot of other trade industries do, where were you when you get out of the school for wherever you wanted to go, do you know, you have to work under somebody for awhile? Cause it, it seems kind of crazy to me that, you know, you can take 24 hours of school and jump out and start selling $2 million houses the next day. Right? Yeah, it is crazy. And the other thing is New York city has a very sophisticated marketplace from the perspective of co-op purchases, board applications, other kinds of requirements. So having somebody who's never done this before. Do your transaction without any oversight from a mentor or somebody who has more experience is a little bit irresponsible, frankly. So it was, it was the right thing for me. I think a lot of agents try to do that, do it this way, going, you know, in the way that the world is right now, the issue right now is just that these teams have gotten so big that they are run more like companies. And it's very hard to get a position where you're getting exposed to all aspects of the, of the business. The, yeah. We'll, we'll talk a little bit more about that. Here in just a few minutes too. But so let's talk about your story just a little bit more. So when you know, you're on this team you're at, you're at element at the time when did you start taking control of your career, where you branched out and said, Hey, I'm going to I'm ready. I'm going to do my own thing. Well, it's really interesting because I was on the team that, well, I was in that assistant position for five years. And then I stayed on that team as the team grew for another couple of years. And then in 2017, I went to compass and I was on another. I was on a top producing team. I was one of the founding members of the team and it was a very, very high producing team still is to this day. And it was a great experience for me because I got to see what a team structure looks like when, you know, all the people on the team are producing and there's, there were two team leaders and, and, and it was a very interesting infrastructure to observe. I did really, really well there and. It just one day, it just, I woke up and really realized that it was time for me to have my own team, build my own infrastructure, make my own decisions, have my own branding. And that's what I did literally in February of this year. So right now we're, it's May 4th and it's been just a few months since I left compass. Started my own team came to Douglas Elliman and decided to chart my own path. So I'd been in the business for 13 years when I finally got up the courage to do it well, congrats on, first of all, congrats on going out on your own. That's obviously a big step and, and very exciting, and I'm sure you, you know, with your, with your New and soon to be found mega fame. It's a great timing to be able to go do that. Let's talk about compass for just a second. Because a lot of our listeners are of course, brokerage owners, burgers, staff, people high producing agents, et cetera. And, you know, compass has been. The conversation, I feel like for about two and a half years now. So, you know, you're, you're starting up this team with some other producers and things like that. And you, you said, okay, we're going to go start a compass. So what was the original draw that said, Hey, look, I'm, I'm going to start this team and I'm going to do it at compass. So, you know, I had been at Douglas Elliman for eight years before I joined compass. And compass is a very, very unique place and they're doing things very, very differently and I. Felt like in the elk of, I don't know, I'm 37 years old. I'd seen a lot for me going to a plate, going back to a place where I felt the most comfortable in the way the systems operated in the staff that I knew that were there and what kind of support I was going to get. And, and really having a great connection with the leaders at the company was the right move for me. And specifically, I can't say that it was anything that had to do with compass that drove me away. I would say it's really this idea of saying. I know what I'm getting. I really want to be with a PR a PR drive firm that also has a ton of talent, a very, very deep bench of new development experience and wherewithal. And, and I knew that was gonna really support me in the future of my career so that I was going to be able to go after bigger business over time. And. And then of course, you know, the rest of it is history in the sense that we all know that there's, there's a lot of other pieces to making a move and everybody cuts their own deal. And, and it was really, you know, it was a really, really great opportunity for me. So, you know, let's talk about that for just a second, because one thing that we do talk about on the show semi-frequently is about why agents join, leave, et cetera, brokerages. Right. And you know, you don't have to talk about specifics or your agreement or anything like that, but, you know, if you had to list maybe the top. Three things that a brokerage could offer you. What w what would those three things be that, that if if a brokerage that was to come to you tomorrow and say, Hey, I want you to come work here. What's the big three things maybe that they could offer you that you'd say, okay, well, maybe I'll at least listen to your, listen to your call. Well, like I said, the most important part of Douglas element's strength is the fact that they have an incredible new development marketing team. And they've done an they've done an incredible job on billions of dollars of, of, of new development over the years. It's a, you know, it's led by Susan to franca. She's incredible. Howard Lorber is super vested in making sure that these projects succeed and he's. Very very involved. And so that was a really big plus for me, because I come from a background of doing a lot of new development. And so that was something that I was really, really focused on building as I moved forward with my career. The second thing that I thought was really, really special is that they do really care about PR in this day and age with the attention economy that we have of. Instagram and digital marketing and media, I felt like I wanted to be in a place where that was really a focus. And that was something that I know Douglas Elliman puts a tremendous amount of resources towards. And so that was something that was super important for me. And then I would say the third thing that was important for me was getting the support that I needed to be able to build the team that I have. And you know, they understand that I'm in a phase of growth and and I think for any agent that is growing their team, you know, making a move can be very, very very, very compelling because of the fact that it always comes with a little bit of extra push. So they are able to get to that next level you know, because that's how they entice brokers to move. So. I would say that that was probably, those are the top three things for me that were really, really enticing. And so I would say that that's, that's the, those are the three pillars for me. Gotcha. And that makes a lot of sense. You know, obviously being in a market like Manhattan, where new construction is, is so prevalent and a big chunk of overall sales. Maybe, maybe a different segue for just a second is to ask about how the new construction market is doing in Manhattan. And obviously last year, the, the big conversation was, you know anything higher end was, was, was dead. But it seems like I just read something in, I believe it was in the post the other day that said essentially New York is back. So are you seeing that there. We are seeing a tremendous amount of activity and transactions in the high end of the. Turn T product market. So that is either a new construction that we'll be able to close very, very soon or within the next 18 months that can close that's in the truly luxury sector of product that is also highly desirable to. The, the high net worth individuals that product is often on the upper East side or the central park South area. And so we're seeing a ton of that. So some also downtown, of course, we're seeing a ton of activity there as well in, you know, the very, very hot markets. Markets like, you know, Tribeca, Greenwich village, West village you know, in those areas, there's very, very limited new development inventory, as you probably know. So it's harder to find the product there, but anything that is well renovated and doesn't need any sort of. Any sort of work and is relatively turnkey is doing very, very well there. Then there's the other markets that have a little bit of bloated inventory. Like you have, you know, some of the West Chelsea area where there's a little bit of extra inventory there, or a lot of extra inventory, you know, the high end of that market seems to still be doing pretty well as long as it's. Totally turnkey which is of course new construction, new development. And then there's some, some, some parts of that market in specific price, segments like that, you know, two to three to $4 million range where it's a little bit more saturated. And I, I think we're seeing that it's going to take a little longer for that to absorb. So it's, it's, it's not a hundred percent back in every single sector. But anything that you don't have to touch, that you can leverage, that you can buy quickly and move into is doing very, very well, especially when it's well-priced. Let's talk about your marketing side of that a little bit. You know, obviously you're doing very well. I, I think we pulled a couple of numbers and it looked like you had 30 closings in the past 13 weeks in that luxury market. So, you know, you're, you're obviously doing a great job marketing listings and doing everything you need to do. For for that. And from that perspective, where are the buyers that are coming in for these properties? Are they people that are buying things site and seen from other countries? Like there had been in the past or are the U S buyers trying to take advantage of maybe an opportunity in New York real estate? Well, it's hard for the foreign buyers to get here. So as far as like people that are coming from outside the United States, anything on that level is pretty much sight unseen. As far as the deals are concerned, as far as out of state, we're definitely seeing people buy from out of state that are interested in investing in Manhattan because they know that everything's about to be on an upswing and then. The diehard new Yorkers, they are buying, they've been buying for awhile, actually. You know, we've been we're in our 13th week straight of the above 30 contract signed in luxury sector as of this week. So there, there are definitely new Yorkers that are buying and, you know, maybe they're still stationed in the Hamptons, but they're ready to move back as soon as they can. But yeah, I mean, that's what it seemed like everybody did is everybody went out to the Hamptons and bought something out there. And then now it seems like everybody's okay. It's, it's a, it's semi safe and the restaurants are opening back up again. Let's let's head back again. But yeah, I mean, that was my, you know, I was something I was intrigued because like, I know a lot of. Of New York, new real estate, new construction, real estate was bought by my International folks for the past few years. And I was just wondering, you know, is there a money people jumping into the market? All of a sudden that are saying, yeah, I'm in, I'm in, I'm in, in China or in, you know, Italy and I'm going to buy it sight unseen because I know it's a deal. And then when I can get on a plane again, I'll be able to get there and go check out my place. But it seems like it's a lot of, it's not as many percentage of those folks as there was in the previous years. Right. Yeah, there's, there's not as many, they do exist for sure. There's sight-unseen deals that are happening, that are real deals. And it depends on the, on the development and how much they're discounting specifically to be able to get those deals done because those people are really looking for a deep discount. If you're buying sight unseen, you're looking for a deal or you're looking for something that's very specifically a trophy property, and you have a really trustworthy person on the ground or somebody that you trust. For some reason, that's going to make you feel comfortable making that purchase. That makes a lot of sense. I think in other markets you know, us buyers have seen a big uptick just in general of, of real estate buying sight unseen. I know my wife and I, we bought a beach house. As soon as the pandemic hit, we, you know, literally. Two weeks, three weeks later, we had an offer in, on a property at the beach for that. So I think there's a lot of buying and, and some of my friends that are in those types of markets have seen that too, but yeah, that makes sense to not not pull the trigger necessarily on it, unless you're really solid or have somebody that's there. That kind of brings me to the next piece though, is in something that you brought up is talking about the PR side of things, right? So you talked about. How elements got a great PR team. And and I'm sure with being on a TV show now where you're going to get a ton of people starting by the time people listen to the show, my guess is your Instagram followers. And and everything will, will go significant higher than what they already are. So what are, what are things that you're doing to get that out there, to get more people to connect up with you and maybe what are some things that element's doing for you? Well, you know, there is, there is, is twofold. You know, I can't say that. The PRM getting is because of the fact that I've necessarily invested in PR as much or that element has, but it's kind of a two way street in the sense that, you know, I've worked on my presence digitally for the last four, five years. Right. I've invested in. I've been, I spent money and put effort into my Instagram and that presence between, you know, I have a personal website, I have a blog, I put out YouTube content. I put out IETV content. There's a, there's a presence there that exists. Which, you know, I did that before I even considered being on the show. That was something that I had been working on because it's passionate vine and it's something that my, I actually have one of my. One of my siblings is in the digital media space. And so he's been pushing me for a long time to build up presence. So, you know, of course Douglas Elliman has been hustling and their PR firm has their PR presence. Cause we, there, they have in-house PR has worked really hard to get me some incredible opportunities. And so has, you know, so has brands way, my personal PR, they do an incredible job as well. You know, so there's, there's a lot of opportunities that I've gotten from that, but also I've been able, I've created. A personal brand that is easy to market right now. So you know, by having a lot of content to work with what's something that you've experienced now that you've you've been on the show. It has not aired yet. But. You, you know, you've sold real estate for 13 years now, and you had 12 of those years pre filming. And one year now PO you know, in the process of one year post filming. So what's been the most unexpected thing that, that you can think of that there was in the filming process. Or now that you're, you know, obviously vaulted to this higher level of recognition, Well, I mean, I haven't aired yet, so I'm definitely not at any sort of higher level of recognition other than the real estate industry has of course been paying attention. I think, you know, because this is a very coveted role and I, and I cannot pretend that there's anything about this. That isn't great coveted. So, so there's that the, I think what, what, every, probably every reality TV personality realizes this, you know, there's a lot of learning how to put on makeup. Which is something I didn't really know how to do very well before this. And then of course, you know, trying to find, figure fettering clothes that, you know, represent me well and make sure that I am conveying who I am on screen. Because that's very different than what it looks like when you look at yourself in the mirror in the morning. Interesting. So, you know, do you, do you foresee yourself changing how you think of yourself? In a week from now after the first episode is Eric or, or is, is Kirsten going to be this, the exact same person next week that she is today? I think I'm always going to be a version of myself. I think, I think every single growth opportunity involves personal growth and purr and changing a little bit of who you are to keep up with where you're trying to go. And I think in a broader sense, million dollar listing or no million dollar listing I am always pushing myself to succeed, to be a better version of myself, to hold myself more and more accountable for the goals I'm setting. For the, you know, for my team, you know, I have a lot of mouths to feed right now as I have been growing my team. And it's really about adapting. So, you know, you can call that change. You can call it adapting, you can call it, you know, rising to the occasion. But I, I definitely am super naive. I definitely don't know. Half of what I'm getting myself into and I am just excited for whatever comes next, for sure. And I think there's a, there's, there's so much expansion that well, ironically, I'm quoting a Ryan Serhant quote there. Right. Which is expansion always in all ways. Right. So but, but let's talk, you know, one or two more questions about the show, and then I want to know just a little bit more about you in general, in terms of real estate career. So, you know, I know we were talking about casting for just a second and you know, there's not a lot to talk about there too much, but I'm sure during some process of casting, they probably asked you questions, like, you know, tell me about some of your clients or tell me about some transactions or things like that, that you've experienced. And I'm sure you'd have some really good ones with 13 years of experience in Manhattan, real estate. Have you ever had a fight you're our client before? I have to say, yes, I've, I've fired fired a couple of clients. In my, in my career, I would say, you know, as the times I've fired clients, I got, had to get really, really far to the end of my rope to have to fire a client. I think probably now I've been, and as long enough that I can see when it's not a good idea, too. Take something on period. Instead of having to get to the point where you have to fire a client but then there's always deals that I think every broker out there knows even when the deal was closed, you say, was it really worth it to lose years of my life, to that particular client, even though I closed the deal. Those are the deals. I think those are the deals. Those are the deals that are worse. It's like when you actually didn't fire the client and you held on and maybe you didn't even end up doing the deal. And then at the end of it, they fired you. You know, that that happens too. And you know that I've been in this long enough that I've seen all of it. And I don't think anybody who's been in it long, as long as I have been, can say that they haven't been in a situation where they either should have fired the client or they, you know, that's the end and felt it wasn't really worthwhile. I tell this story a lot. My very first client I ever had when I was selling real estate, I showed 152 houses. And, and I was 19. At that point, I asked the question, I finally got up the guts to ask them the question, are you actually going to buy something to which their answer was probably not. We're probably just going to live with his dad. And, and so you look back and, and I think there are certain things like that that just change you. And, and, you know, You know, you'll learn better questions to ask upfront. Right. And, and it's what makes you a better realtor at, at 13 years in than on day one in the business. So obviously if that's, you know, the negative side of it, any super memorable sales in terms of things you are really excited by, or, or maybe people that you were, you represented that you were excited by. I think when for somebody like me, who's been in for as long as I have and seen as much as I have the deals that are exciting are the deals that are the most complicated usually and are assets that are maybe assets that are untraditional assets. So I sold a loft in Soho, in a building that's a commercial, residential building where it could either go commercial or residential and. It was an off-market property. It was a very, very difficult deal that I did with another broker who represented the seller. And we were able to pull the deal together over the course of, I think it was the contract was out for like nine months. And it was probably I think it was a $2.9 million sale, so nothing really large, but that was something that was a super unique asset. I was very excited about the deal for my clients. I brought them to the table. I brought several people to the table to buy this particular apartment and ended up finding somebody who did, and it was really. One of those experiences that just made me feel really good about evaluating, evaluating property value potential cap rate, potential upside, and this idea of like threading the needle that I think some, those of us were swinging for the fences sometimes feel like it's never going to happen and you do need to keep pushing for those deals. And, and it was a really, that, that for me, was one of those experiences that I would say was really fun. Awesome. So, you know staying on your, on your business my guess is starting next week. The answer to this question is probably gonna be very different from what it is today. And having talked to somebody that was on RO Habibi from that was on million dollar listing San Francisco. I know his, his life really changed and, and were hit were the answer to hit. This question changed after it was on the show. But so today, and, and looking back on the past few years, where did most of your business come from? Is it referrals? Is it marketing that you do? Where does that business come from? My favorite way to get businesses from business. So I always find that the momentum of the business itself brings in new business. And for example, doing really, really great job with a specific seller always helps bring in. Know more business from that specific building. I also find that doing a great job with a buyer, getting them a great deal on something, doing a great job with the transactor from start to finish, that also brings in other business. So for me, it's always just been kind of this waterfall effect of as soon as you do business, you get more business from that business. And then of course, there's a network that I have, my husband's a real estate developer. It's well-known fact that, you know, I've worked on a lot of his developments, so that was another way that I've always. That I've always worked at the business. And then he has an incredible network that we work together cause we've been together for 12 years. So that's another way that I I've gotten busy. And now, you know, of course, as I grow my team there. Okay. All kinds of different ways that I'm getting business, whether it's from the network of my agents as well. You know, people calling me specifically over the years that I've been in touch with over maybe five years ago. And finally we're doing a deal together, you know, it's, it's. It's more that you never really know where it's going to come from. Even though you have to keep beating the bushes and going across, going, going out and outreach to your network that you know is going to bring you business. And then I'm always surprised by the auxiliary business that comes from places that you never would expect. And I think that every broker probably feels that way. Interesting. Do you do follow on marketing post-close like, or do you stay in touch with your buyers and sellers? I mean, obviously it seems like the answer to that question is yes, but I don't know if you know this 88% of people at closing said they would definitely, or probably use the same realtor again, but nationally, and I'm sure Manhattan is an outlier to this, but, but nationally only about 11% of people ever use the same realtor again. And, and the reason why is they forget who their agent is. So do you do follow on marketing after you've closed a deal in a building to not only remind your client that you had, that you're still there, but also to, to maybe get other listings or other transactions in that same building? I would say I do a little bit of a combination of both, you know, over the years I've been really, really fortunate that business just has continued to come to me. And I haven't had to think as much about these like specific techniques in a very organized, formulated matter manner, I would say. So, you know, and I think there's a lot of brokers out there like me where if they had done a little bit more of that, they'd probably have even more business. I, I definitely do keep in touch with all of my. Old clients in some form. It's not necessarily mailing the building, but I do, I do keep in contact with, with my old clients, because most of them, I mean, it's you feel like you've been through hell and back put them, I mean, in New York city a lot of these transactions are bigger transactions. So to have a good year, it doesn't necessarily mean you had to sell a hundred homes. You could have sold 10. And so it was only 10 people. And so you can keep in touch with them. That makes sense. Yeah for sure. Okay. So I, you know, my last bank of questions here that I prepped for you is, is really around helping others in, in our industry. Right? So it's, it's providing some advice to, to other folks. And so, you know, obviously we talked about your team and you, as you said, you have a lot of mouths to feed now. And I see lots of agents that struggle with the idea of starting their own team, you know, and a lot of times I see them starting a team way later than they probably otherwise should have. And sometimes they get burnt out. What advice would you give for somebody considering starting a team? Just like you RIS well, I clearly, I have not gotten to a point where I have this. Proven track record of what it takes to start a successful team where you are successful and things are going great, but we're like three months into it. So, you know, I can't, I can't say like, this is what I'd say or is my advice. I can tell you what I'm doing and what I think is going to work. And that is that I have invested in getting the right help. And the right infrastructure to build the team that I want to have in the next five, 10 and 15 years from now. And so I haven't said we're going to wait until we have a hundred million dollars in listings before I hire a big COO who can actually handle things and is actually at my level, I didn't wait to get $50 million in less things before I decided to have a transaction manager and have a separate personal assistant for myself who can handle some of the backend so that I'm able to run around and do things. And I didn't wait until I had. The number of listings. I needed to have three agents that are supporting me. I decided to build the basic infrastructure at the barest bones that I think I need to be able to support what I view our goals for the next few years to be. And I picked a COO, which I think. Almost nobody does in the business that has more experience than I do. That is a really heavy hitter that has been doing new development for the last 15 years and has done over two and a half billion in free development sales, and and multi-family sales. And she and I speak a thousand times a day and are completely on the same page as to what it takes to grow the team. And she's able to also lead. And I, and a lot of team leaders either pick up. Pick a partner. And then that ends up kind of going poorly because you both have this like really, really big ego of wanting to kind of be in the, in the limelight. I guess you could say. Whereas what I decided to do was say, listen, there's no way I'm going to do this all myself. I want someone I can bounce ideas off of. And I really want somebody who's at my level, who can go into a pitch with me and people can look at the two of us and say, I know Kirsten's really busy too. And so I feel really great being in the hands of both of these women plus their team. So, so it seems like the biggest thing you're saying is, is person selection. When you're starting your team, like get the right people on your team, seems like it's the most important thing outside of, you know, maybe secondary to that systems. Right? Yeah, I think having the right people on your team systems, I am, you know, I, I am doing Tom ferry coaching and those guys are incredible. They are really good at helping you create the systems and telling you when you need to hire and when you need to fire and how to hire and how to fire, which I think is also really, really big part of his business is. Knowing what kind of person you're trying to hire for a specific role? I think a lot of us hire personalities in this business because this is a personality business. When you probably need to hire personalities based on a specific personality profile, not just somebody that you like and feel like having around, because if they're not able to do what you need them to do in that role, you're not going to like having them around very, very soon because it's going to be a drain on the resources. Yeah, we actually interviewed Howard Chung. Who's the vice-president John L Scott. It's a giant brokerage out in the the Northwest. And you know, one of the things we talked to him about was leadership a few weeks ago and you know, making sure that you're, you're developing people too, right? Not just not just hiring the right person to start with, but that you're helping bring them along and, and, and, you know, keep them engaged with the team. So it seems like. You're kind of saying that the similar things there. Okay, so, Oh, sorry, go ahead. No, no, I, I completely agree. I mean, I think the world of building a team is. Extremely difficult. And in order to build the right team, you really need to focus on the people that you're bringing in from the beginning and being very, very clear about job descriptions and, you know, expectations. And then you have to continue to evaluate and give these people support so that they, so that there isn't a ton of turnover, which is what happens on a lot of teams, as you know, So, so exactly. And, and that actually is a perfect segue to my next question. So, you know the real estate industry as a whole, when you're a one person are one woman show is, is hard enough to figure out when is appropriate to shut off. And I feel like a lot of team members. When you hire somebody on a team, the expectation that the, that is there for some people on these teams is of course that they're going to work just as hard as you are to, to, to be involved. So, you know, now, and especially now with you, with you being on a TV show and, and, you know, vaulting to this new position of recognition in the, in the next couple of weeks you know, do you have advice. Maybe four, four team leaders on a Wednesday appropriate to shut off and be when is, when is the expectation that should be there for their team members to be able to shut off. This is something that I talk about with my COO Joel, all the time. You know, we are extremely intense people. The reason we've worked so well together is that we aren't really shutting off enough probably right now, but we also consider ourselves to be in a phase that we call the startup phase. I do feel like I'm running a startup right now. And the beginning of a startup is got a different rhythm than, you know, maybe six to 12 months into a startup. And so we're in that first six month phase. So the two of us. Don't really plan on shutting off very soon until we hit certain milestones. And then what we've been trying to figure out how to do, which I have not been super successful with. And I'd love advice at any point in time about this is how to let the team feel like they can self-regulate as they need to self-regulate because. All of us need to self-regulate at some point in time, you know, I'll, I try to take Saturdays off and not have any childcare on Saturday. So I'm forced to be with my children and my family. That's my only technique. I've kind of found as a way to try to self-regulate. But the only other way I've found is to work on focused meditation or any sort of time where you can specifically give yourself, me time and then book vacations so that you can actually go on vacation, which has been really difficult in COVID. But. Yeah. How to, how to make your team feel like they don't have to work as hard as you work or give them the opportunity to be able to self-regulate we're still trying to figure out how to do that, because right now we're not necessarily setting a very good example of what to do. It is one of the biggest reasons why people leave teams. Right? It's you know, some people leave teams because Hey, they think they can go out and do it right. Better on their own and make more money. But I do. I, you know, we, we work with some of the largest brokerages in the entire country and we have one brokerage is 130 teams inside of it. And I see a lot where the team leaders are people that. You know what, describe them. Some cells very similar to you where they're, they're just, you know, go getters and they're willing to, to work absolutely as hard as it is going to take to make something work. And that's what makes them successful in what they do. But then of course, they get team team members that are on their team and they're used to this, you know, working 80 hours a week if they absolutely have to. But of course, team members, aren't, aren't going to be able and aren't going to be willing. Well over an extended period of time to give you that kind of pump. And so, you know, that's why people get burnt out. They leave being on the team because they feel like, you know, th they just can't keep up with working that time period. But I think your, your statement of what you said is, is right, is you got to let people find. What their rhythm is because everybody is different. Like, we have somebody in our creative department at Travis and, you know, he's an amazing worker willing to work 80 hours a week if we need to. But every once in a while we get a request from him for a mental health day where it's just like, Hey guys, I got to take a day off. Right. And, and, you know, just relax. And if it means just kicking back and watching TV, that's what it is. And he's different from a lot of our software developers, which are different from like my, myself, where I've. My only way of shutting off is to travel because otherwise I will check my phone the first minute I wake up and the last minute I go to bed. So it does seem like it's a lot of you know, finding the right thing for the right person and making sure that you're communicating with them over over time to make sure they're not burning out. Right. Yeah. And there's also a big financial component for most people in this particular position. I think, you know, at some point with these teams, the splits can be very, very low for the team members. And if you are prepared to keep people long-term, at some point, you're going to have to evaluate and figure out ways to make people feel financially incentivized if they're gonna be working that much. Cause I think that's probably the other biggest reason team members leave is that they feel like they're working very hard for very small piece of the pie and not getting enough support on the transactional level. And this is an area that I'm still trying to figure out myself, because again, I just started a team, but I've seen it myself over the years. Being on teams, you know, for the last 12 years that it, it does come down to economics and support. And how do you strike that balance without running yourself into the ground and, and, and making no money as a team leader is a super delicate balance. Makes makes a lot of sense. And I think it, you know my friend, Steve Murray, who runs real trends, talks about the different types of teams and how how, you know, it's, it's different for each different type of teams. So some teams are where the team leader is a Rainmaker and the expectations of that team is different from where, you know, it's a team of equals or a team where you know, everybody gets a piece of the pie versus everybody's a salary based agent. So yeah, it's it. It, it definitely seems like you know, it's, it's one of those things that people do struggle with and finding what's right for them and the way that their team is structured. Okay. Just the last question or two here real quick, because we're running out of time. You know, H have you dealt in Manhattan, are you dealing with multiple offer situations? Like a lot of our clients are. We are seeing multiple offers. We're not seeing it. Yeah. Everything. We are seeing it on certain products, especially well-priced product. Remember the reason that the Manhattan market did pick up and started to do so well was that the prices had come down. So if you start to get a little too aggressive on pricing, you get resistance just like you will anywhere. And so as long as it's turnkey and beautiful and well priced for what that particular market will bear which can be a very high price for some of the products. It is definitely seeing a lot of interest. And in some cases, multiple bids. Gotcha. Yeah, that's what I heard is, you know, those types of markets like San Francisco and New York and in Chicago are seeing it quite as bad as what other markets like like Colorado and Denver, where we have a large presence at Travis in it's not quite the same, but okay. What advice, looking back to yourself, you know, 12, 13 years ago, what's the best single piece of advice you would give yourself back then that, you know, now. I had started coaching when I just got into the industry and I quit coaching because I was just so intimidated by it. And I had started in this position as an assistant working, you know, 80 hour weeks as an assistant. And so I gave it up because of the fact that I decided to dedicate myself to learning the business and working for somebody else, which. I can never go back and say that it wasn't the right thing to do, but I wish I would have given myself a couple of years to get to a certain point and had been very, very clear about that point and then started coaching again and really focus on how I was going to make it on my own and set, put those systems in place that made it a more sustainable way to work because I definitely. Work in an unsustainable way for too long without the right systems in place. And now that I'm putting the systems in place and trying to come up with something that is more sustainable and more of an actual infrastructure, I see why this can be such a how do you say it? Fruitful, but also satisfying job instead of just something that is like, You know, feast or famine, total insanity, or you like, feel like you need to be on a vitamin IV as a vegetable in the corner while you get yourself back together again, to like start another season of real estate. Oh, that's a it's good, good advice that everybody should, should pay attention to. Okay. Last question is the same question I ask every one of my guests on this show, which is, you know, w w looking back on earth, 13 years of in this business and, and a lot of experience you have, and now on a TV show, you know, if you could change one thing about organized residential real estate, what would that one thing be? Oh, wow. There should be some sort of a real program that exists for real estate agents specific to the location that gives them the real fundamentals of the practical side of the business. And it is clearly very geographically specific to be able to do this. And, you know, I've seen agents, you know, there are some programs out there that are training programs, but if there was a way to give. Brokers or agents before they get into the business a little bit more practical knowledge about really what really the deal takes. And I think that that would be really awesome for agents. So that's something that I would, that's probably the only thing I would really change specifically. And the other thing would probably be, you know, making. Making tougher, tougher guidelines and tougher restrictions. For those agents that are only doing a couple of deals or like one deal a year or less than that you know, and trying to, you know, bridge other markets because it can, we've found in New York, especially. And I think that other markets feel this way, you know, somebody comes in from another market, they bring a buyer. They aren't using somebody that necessarily a specialized and it can be a complete mess for us specifically, you know, when agents come in from out of state or not out of state or from upstate or from, you know, from further East, it can be very, very difficult to do a transaction with them just because they don't know, you know, the fundamentals of the market. So I'm sitting here chuckling a little bit because that is by far the most common answer that we have w we we've actually spoken with the CEO of Sotheby's CEO of River number of, of large brokerage firms. Right. And funny enough, their answers are all the same. You know, you always hear this conversation around real estate, which is, well, it's good that there's a million people in the business or, or, you know, brokerages love just collecting agents. And it seems like the mindset to that of that is finally shifting. So we, we actually have talked about later on this year, having a summit on, on having. Increasing the barrier to entry to get a real estate license and, or implementing requirements post-licensing before you can represent somebody individually. And, and maybe if you, if you have the time later on this year, maybe we'd love to have you zoom in. And, and talk about it and bring your perspective to it as well, because it's clearly something shared by leaders like yourself in the, in the industry. Well, yeah, you're totally right. You're right. You're right. Thanks so much for joining us again. Folks you've been listening to. Kirsten Jordan. She is an agent with Douglas element in New York and selling Manhattan real estate. And she is the newest and very first female cast member of million dollar listing New York. So make sure to tune in to Bravo and watch her on million dollar listing New York, Kirsten. Thanks so much for joining us. Thank you.